Details of Ablution

by fadhly, Friday, November 25, 2011, 04:20 (2768 days ago)
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 14:59

Salam,

"The details of ablution (5:6)"

Verse 5.6 can not be understood as ablution,

'Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona'

becausequmtumis a perfect verb, mean that action has been done, not will be done.
( http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%285:6:5%29 )

Details of Ablution

by Joseph Islam ⌂ @, On God's Earth, Saturday, December 03, 2011, 02:26 (2760 days ago) @ fadhly
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 15:00

Yes, clearly. I note your acknowledgement of the perfect verb but find your conclusion non-sequitur.

Indeed the verse (5:6) says 'stood up for prayer' (action complete], but you simply cannot tear a verb (perfect of imperfect) out of its context and interpret the verb in isolation. The 'fa' in 'fa-ighsilu' (imperfect) clearly denotes something that then results after the 'qumtum ila salati'.

Therefore the 'qumtum ila salati' needs to be understood in the overall context of the sentence which means when you have 'stood up for prayer'. It doesn't mean that you have prayed!

Rather, it means when you have stood up with the intention of prayer or when you actually get up to do the prayer [perfect verb - action complete], then ... (carry out the ablution process).

Peace.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

Details of Ablution

by Joseph Islam ⌂ @, On God's Earth, Sunday, December 04, 2011, 01:45 (2759 days ago) @ Joseph Islam
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 15:00

Salamun Alaikum,

Please note a typo and a correction on my post noted after a re-read with a slight addition.

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Joseph.

(1)

The following:

"but you simply cannot tear a verb (perfect of imperfect)"

Should read:

"but you simply cannot tear a verb (perfect or imperfect)"


(2)

The following:

"The 'fa' in 'fa-ighsilu' (imperfect) clearly denotes something that then results after the 'qumtum ila salati'"

Should read:

"The 'fa' in 'fa-ighsilu' clearly denotes something that then results after the 'qumtum ila salati'" - fa = result particle or an answer to a condition usually translated as 'then', 'and' or 'so' (alfa waq'aat fi jawaab ashrat). ['ighsilu' = imperative verb - an instruction or a command etc]


Regards :-)

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

Details of Ablution

by Ali Noor Atlanta, Atlanta, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 17:04 (2750 days ago) @ Joseph Islam

Assalam,Not only the translation as' "intend" for Kuntum is not right but the word in bracket as ( Wash) also interpolation as Aya says for rubbing Head & Ancles.

Details of Ablution

by Joseph Islam ⌂ @, On God's Earth, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 21:46 (2749 days ago) @ Ali Noor Atlanta
edited by Joseph Islam, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 23:23

Salamun Alaikum Ali Noor,

In this thread I have not once made an interpolation as 'wash' so I am not sure whose interpretation you are insinuating with your comment, or indeed referencing.

As used in 5:6,

Wash (ghusl) = face and your hands to the elbows
wipe (mas'ha) = head and the feet up till the ankles.

I have clearly cited my reasons as to why and how the 'qumtum ila salati' needs to be understood in the overall context of the sentence.

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=337

Regards,
Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

Details of Ablution

by fadhly, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 05:56 (2750 days ago) @ Joseph Islam
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 15:01

"Rather, it means when you have stood up with the intention of prayer or when you actually get up to do the prayer [perfect verb - action complete], then ... (carry out the ablution process)."

Do people get up to do the prayer then carry out the ablution process? Usually they do not do like that. Generally they carry out the ablution process first then get up to do the prayer such as in Jumat prayer.

Undeniable that the ablution done before the prayer. To assure that practices, the translation of 5.6 is twisted:

"Hilali & Khan
O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful."
( http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/6/default.htm )

In Arabic text, there is no word meaning intend. That translation is not correct, but must be accepted as a fact.

Since the practices of the ablution based on wrong translation that mean it is not correct according to the guindance of the Alquran.

Details of Ablution

by Joseph Islam ⌂ @, On God's Earth, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 21:41 (2749 days ago) @ fadhly
edited by Joseph Islam, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 23:33

Brother Fadhly,

Salamun Alaikum

You respectfully assert:

"Do people get up to do the prayer then carry out the ablution process? Usually they do not do like that. Generally they carry out the ablution process first then get up to do the prayer such as in Jumat prayer"

Brother, please think about the logic of what you are saying. Are you asserting that people complete the 'salat' and then perform the ablution?

If so, then please can you explain clearly for everyone's benefit the purpose of the directive of ablution after the salat is complete.

With respect, there is no point in raising a contention without a plausible cogent alternative explanation or a better understanding of the verse.

I have clearly cited my reasons why the 'qumtum ila salati' needs to be understood in the overall context of the sentence with the Arabic grammar used. This is clear to any Arabic speaking person.

The ambit and usage of the word 'qama' with salaat in the context it has been used can clearly capture the action of rising with an intention to perform salaat.

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=337

Regards,
Joseph.

--
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act'
George Orwell

http://www.quransmessage.com
Copyright © 2010 Quransmessage.com

Details of Ablution

by fadhly, Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 04:24 (2749 days ago) @ Joseph Islam

Brother Joseph,

Salam.

You respectfully assert:

"Brother, please think about the logic of what you are saying. Are you asserting that people complete the 'salat' and then perform the ablution?"

No. I follow your explanation that people get up (not complete) to do the prayer then carry out the ablution process.

In Jumat prayer ceremony, for instance, people perform the ablution, listen khutbah (preaching), get up to do the prayer, and perform the prayer; meanwhile according to your understanding on 5.6, after get up to do the prayer, the ablution should be performed before perform the prayer. It is mean that generally, the ablution practices not follow the Quran guidance.

In Jumat prayer ceremony, almost impossible to perform the ablution after getting up to do the prayer, before performing the prayer, especially if many people want to perform the Jumat prayer. If very difficult/can not be followed, I think it is not a guidance.

Regards,
Fadhly

Details of Ablution

by Ali Noor, Atlanta, Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 17:57 (2749 days ago) @ fadhly

Assalam Bro. It is very simple when you get up ( get ready) for Jumah prayers do abolition & then hear Jumah Khutba then Pray Salathul Jumah behind Imam. All mosques will facility of mass ablution & no long waiting.

Details of Ablution

by fadhly, Thursday, December 15, 2011, 05:14 (2748 days ago) @ Ali Noor
edited by Laurie Hamdani, Thursday, December 15, 2011, 13:10

Salam.

"It is very simple when you get up ( get ready) for Jumah prayers do ablution & then hear Jumah Khutba then Pray Salathul Jumah behind Imam".

The phrase 'qumtum ila salati' = 'stood up for prayer' (action complete)
[ http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=337 ],

please do not change to

sit down to hear Jumah Khutba.

Details of Ablution

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Thursday, December 15, 2011, 20:05 (2747 days ago) @ fadhly

w/salaam,

qumtum ila alssalati ~ observed/attended to the salat/bond

Details of Ablution

by Ali Noor Atlanta, USA, Friday, December 16, 2011, 00:17 (2747 days ago) @ Waqas

Br Wakas you mean to say abultion after "Kuntum ilas salaati? Washing hands & face is pre-requisite for Salaat.

Details of Ablution

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Friday, December 16, 2011, 13:20 (2747 days ago) @ Ali Noor Atlanta

salaam Ali,

What I wrote was the literal translation. It would imply that the regular/timed salat/bond was a communal thing in this context, and therefore when one attended to it, they do ablution, which would imply the facilities were there perhaps. So it is done before the salat/bond but at the location.
Interestingly, chapter 5, in my view, is one of the last revealed chapters, or maybe even the very last one, so this would have been believers at their peak, which may provide further weight to this understanding.

Details of Ablution

by fadhly, Wednesday, December 21, 2011, 01:43 (2742 days ago) @ Waqas

Salam,

"... and therefore when one attended to it, they do ablution, ..."

Ablution (wudhu) highly correlates with clean up (taharah). No ablution without clean up.

Unfortunately, only one word najasun in Alquran, and it not relate with physical filthy as regards urine, stool, blood etc, but relate with polytheism (9.28).

Details of Ablution

by fadhly, Friday, December 16, 2011, 10:29 (2747 days ago) @ Waqas

Salam,

Qaf-Waw-Miim:

stand still or firm, rose/stand up, managed/conducted/ordered/regulated/superintended, established, made it straight/right, maintain/erect/observe/perform, set up, people/community/company, abode, stature/dignity/rank. aqama - to keep a thing or an affair in a right state.
( http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm )


stand up
( http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=qwm#%285:6:5%29 )

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